Kyueun Kim

[Unpublished interview, please do not circulate.]

In Kwon Hayoun’s participatory VR performance XXth Attempt to the Potential Magic (2021), presented at the National Museum of Modern and Contemporary Art (MMCA) in Seoul, participants are invited to unexpected duets with performers as they are wearing VR headsets and exploring the virtual world. The performers, without VR headsets, follow the participants and copy their gestures. Sometimes, the gestures and movements were the same, and at other times, the gestures were references or triggers that could be interpreted and transformed into the performer’s own choreography.

The duet was not “interactive” in terms of physical or even eye contact: but even though only the performer could see me and alter her gestures, I felt a sense of intimacy and residual feelings afterward. VR separated me from the physical reality for a bit, but intimacy was made possible through the mediation of technology. As I exited the Seoul Project Gallery after the performance ended, I felt a strong urge to speak with the performer who had imitated my gestures.

Two weeks later, in April 2021, I met the performer Rhyu Jung Mun in person at a cafe in Seoul. I recall Rhyu describing the piece as akin to a personal journey to intimacy and stating that dancing in this piece was often emotionally taxing because so much focus and care was placed on each participant. After a year and a half of engaging more seriously with VR scholarship and VR as a participatory medium, I thought it would be interesting to continue the conversation with Rhyu. In September 2022, the second conversation, framed as an interview, was conducted via Zoom for one hour. Following are some highlights of the interview with Rhyu, which delved into topics such as VR and bodily sensations, the intersections of virtual/physical realities, and intimacy in VR. The interview was conducted in Korean; I transcribed, edited, and translated the conversation into English. 

I share the following interview as an extended duet stretched outside of the performance space.

 *  *  *

Kim Kyueun: The performance was about a year and a half ago. When you think back on this work, I wonder what kind of memory or meaning it has left for you.

Rhyu Jung Mun: I think that the work has made me think a lot about bodily sensations. VR enabled our imaginations to be realized in the virtual realm and the performer guided the participant through this process. Kwon once said to us, “If we start moving this way in virtual reality, we can dance.” The fact that each individual’s gesture and movement is unique was the most intriguing aspect. It was fascinating to see how different and unique hand gestures each participant made. I realized that not all human bodies are the same, and that while the shapes may appear similar at times, the specific gestures, and movements, as well as the degrees of sensation and immersion that each person feels, are all unique. Your body tells stories about you. I learned to respect each of these different bodies, movements, and people.

Kim: To put it simply, VR is most commonly described as a computer-generated, three-dimensional sphere. The VR headset provides a visual entry to this world while the controller often enables direct interaction with the virtual environment. Kwon’s work did not use the controllers, but hand tracking was still possible. I was in the early stages of my VR performance experience at the time, so I didn’t realize how unique it was technically.

Rhyu: Because there was no controller, the participants were free to move their hands, and the hand gestures could be so unique and different. From the outside, it’s that the participants are touching the air, as if they are following the line of stars (constellations) drawn in the performance venue walls. This reminded me of choreography – dance directing is similar. I believe that the hand is very important for touch and sensing. 

Kim: Even then, were there any gestures or movements that are similar and repeating?

Rhyu: Each gesture and movement were distinct. What was similar was the location of the body. In the work, if the participant doesn’t come to a particular spot (or like stations), the work doesn’t move to the next step. The lines on the floor are (like maps) showing these intersecting points. When some participants end up being stuck in-between these stations, the performers know where they are virtually, so we help them navigate it. Sometimes, such as when releasing fireflies, it requires a gentle and delicate touch. But some participants just waved their hands too quickly, making it harder to track their movements and touch, so performers would sometimes put our hands in different directions and send the fireflies up to the sky together. At this moment, you may suddenly see two sets of hands in the virtual system, one of the performer’s and one of the participants.

Kim: That’s really interesting! Like intersections. As a participant, I imagined myself being or dancing between the virtual and physical realities, with my body mediating these two realms. So I was curious about how the performers feel about the virtual and the physical worlds. One the one hand, performers do not wear the VR headsets and therefore exist outside of the VR world. But on the other hand, in this particular case, there are some voluntary (from the performer’s point of view) and unexpected (from the participant’s point of view) interference/interruption. The physical action of the performer spilled over to the virtual realm. Can we say then that the performer also travels between these realms, even without wearing the VR headset? It can be mediated by your imagination and observation, as well as the proximity of your hands being close to virtual objects (not even a physical or virtual touch but holding something together).

Rhyu: It’s really interesting from a performer’s point of view. Yes, it’s like there are intersections between the two worlds. The more I perform in this work, the more I get to know where the participant is virtually. I can imagine it. So in other words, just as participants imagine the performer’s physical movements while in VR, performers do the same. But, I’d say there were not many moments of intersections. There were more instances where I think we were deviating or out of juncture rather than intersecting or getting closer. When I dance, sometimes there are moments when I can feel my energies intersecting, overlapping, and responding to the energies of other performers! That’s how it felt like in Kwon’s work. Like in a duet. It’s truly unique. 

Kim: In the end, I came to a similar conclusion about this work. Participants can feel the performers or imagine a movement or duet with them even if they cannot see them. But then, do we really need a VR headset for this? Why VR and what does VR afford us here? Personally, as someone who does not always feel comfortable moving my body in public or on stage in front of an audience, VR allowed me to explore my movements and senses more freely. However, this can be accomplished using a different medium (e.g., sightless google). 

Rhyu: I think that VR headset allowed us to experience these subtle points of intersections/responses/[co-sensing] between different bodies. People move their bodies more freely and easily with VR headsets. I was skeptical of VR at first because I was concerned that wearing it would cause me to lose senses of my body and how my body allows me to feel things. After performing in Kwon’s work, I think it’s truly amazing how technology like VR headsets can turn what we imagine into a kind of reality. There’s a big difference between being told to “move your hands and body as if you’re following the fireflies” and actually moving your body naturally while immersed in the 3D VR virtual world [where you can “touch” fireflies and see them fly].

Kim: It’s time to discuss the potential magic [referencing the title of the work]. What exactly is this potential magic? How do you make it happen? Do you think it happened during the performances, and if so, how do you know?

Rhyu: I had the magical moments near the end of the performance run. Surprisingly, you reached out to me around that time. At first, I wasn’t sure if only me as a performer felt intimate, caring toward the participants. Like a one-way love or one way longing. However, there are times after the performance when the participants look at me differently, and I can sense something magical happened from the way they looked at me. They sometimes spoke to me. Whenever it happened, I imagined, we shared a magical moment.

Kim: I agree, and I stated this in my conference presentation in July! I can’t pinpoint when I felt the magic (like oh, when we touched the fireflies…), but it all added up and I was like, I can’t explain this feeling of intimacy other than calling it magical. It is unpredictable and not something we can attempt to create with effort. 

Rhyu: That is why it is critical to consider where the body should be located in virtual space. What kinds of virtual spaces do we want to create to make participants feel safe in their movements, and how can it help to re-energize their bodily senses?

Kim: I think this is also where theatrical and performative practices can intervene to reshape/dramaturg/open up new avenues of virtual reality experience, particularly by grounding participation in the physicality of the dancing and moving bodies.

[Unpublished interview, please do not circulate.]